Msg: Re: Backup--OT

-----Original Message-----
From: Harry Binswanger
To: xywrite
Sent: Sun, Apr 20, 2014 5:42 pm
Subject: Re: Backup--OT

>Well, that would be a dealbreaker on that particular product for me. I >would never trust any archival system that did not verify writes. Lost too >many files over the years! Little things - - but things I wanted. Just >because a drive boots does not mean -- far from it -- that every byte has >been correctly copied. Really? I haven't seen incorrect copying for decades. He recommends RAID. I was wondering if that wouldn't be a better solution than the disk duplicator. But the RAID enclosure would have to connect by some means to the computer, and wouldn't that slow things down? --Harry >For anyone who wants further fuel for storage paranoia, Robin Harris's >articles on NTFS corruption and SSD corruption are good starting points: > >http://www.zdnet.com/blog/storage/how-ssds-can-hose-your-data/1423 > >http://www.zdnet.com/blog/storage/how-microsoft-puts-your-data-at-risk/169 > >(further searches will reveal how Apple missed the boat on supporting a >reliable file system; also his stuff on MDISC which apparently finally has >a '1000-year' blu-ray - - topics discussed on this list last year) > >At 20/04/2014 19:24, you wrote: > >>>That's interesting - - I didn't think you'd be easy to convince. And as >>>I say, you've gotten me to doubt. I am assuming that there is some kind >>>of verify mechanism? >> >>Just that I put the backup drive in the machine and it boots. >> >> >>>Regarding ShadowProtect, I just now had a need accidentally downloaded >>>something from Linkbury which is one of the most annoying things ever. I >>>had backed up an hour ago so I thought it would be a cinch to restore >>>from ShadowProtect. But, on my new Dell system with the 8 partitions and >>>heaven only knows what sort of BIOS, I simply cannot get the recovery >>>environment to work. It will boot, via a USB external CD, but then it >>>hangs. There are many ways around this: I could just do it all on >>>another system, but I am disturbed that I cannot do it on the host >>>system. This is the first time I have had a problem with ShadowProtect. >>>Harry, you brought it upon me! >> >>The Shadow knows! >> >> >>>At 18/04/2014 17:53, you wrote: >>>>Bill, >>>> >>>>You've convinced me not to use any software solution. The best I can >>>>think of in using the disk duplicator is to get or fabricate some kind >>>>of cable that would allow me to keep the SSD *outside* of the computer. >>>>I've searched for these, but I don't think they exist. The idea would >>>>be to plug one end of the cable inside the laptop where the SSD >>>>connects and the other end of the cable to the SSD. Its purpose would >>>>only be to avoid having to unscrew the little door on the Thinkpad >>>>inside of which the SSD normally lives. Ideally the cable extender >>>>would be a Y-shaped one, so that the SSD would always be plugged into >>>>both the computer and the drive duplicator. >>>> >>>>As to the one I use, it's available for $51 from newegg: >>>> >>>>http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?gclid=CJPqpNy_6r0CFQ2hOgoda2oAJw&Item=N82E16817422030&nm_mc=KNC-GoogleAdwords&cm_mmc=KNC-GoogleAdwords-_-pla-_-Hard+Drive+Enclosures-_-N82E16817422030&ef_id=U0QBfgAABVdzqSDN:20140418165301:s >>>> >>>>Regards, >>>>Harry >>>> >>>>>Hi Harry, >>>>> >>>>>1. The files that ShadowProtect creates are not the image itself. (You >>>>>will often choose to use some degree of compression.) They are the >>>>>data SP uses to create the image on the target media. I don't know how >>>>>to explain it any better than that - - it is confusing. I am not >>>>>confident that I am using the vocabulary correctly. >>>>> >>>>>2. So: let's say you have a hard drive that has failed, and you need >>>>>to restore your system to a new hard drive from the SP backup you made >>>>>an hour before the crash. >>>>> >>>>>You need the SP program to take your backup data and write the image >>>>>onto the new hard drive. I have done this in two ways. >>>>> >>>>>a. by booting the SP disk on my target computer's CD (on a new system >>>>>you could just as well boot with a USB stick), and restoring to new >>>>>hard drive from an external with the SP data >>>>> >>>>>or >>>>> >>>>>b. by using a different computer that has SP installed. On this >>>>>computer, I will have two external drives. Drive 1 is the SP backup; >>>>>Drive 2 is the blank you want to image. In this case, I tell the SP >>>>>program to restore Drive 2 from Drive 1. (Physically speaking, I do >>>>>not place Drive 2, the new hard drive, into an actual enclosure; >>>>>rather, I use Newertech's Universal Drive Adapter which connects, >>>>>without any enclosure or fuss, any drive to a USB 2/3 port.) >>>>> >>>>>You've forced me to think about this deeply unpleasant subject again, >>>>>and I offer these observations: >>>>> >>>>>1. SP seems to work. By contrast, I have not been happy with more or >>>>>less recent versions of Ghost and Acronis. I was particularly upset >>>>>when Ghost lost the ability to live clone one hard drive to another - >>>>>- perhaps that has been fixed? Apart from that, both Ghost and Acronis >>>>>have always been buggy for me. >>>>> >>>>>2. There definitely are gotchas in SP. One of its characteristics is >>>>>that there are some partitions that will only backup on a full backup. >>>>>They will not work on an incremental backup job. Therefore, if you >>>>>don't want to see a backup failed message, you have to remove those >>>>>partitions from the incremental backup job. I don't like this. >>>>> >>>>>3. More and more, I can see the point in using a hardware-only >>>>>solution such as you have, and would be grateful if you pointed me to >>>>>the website for the product. I do strenuously object to the >>>>>requirement that you have to remove the source drive from the computer >>>>>each time you want to do a backup, but if this is the price one has to >>>>>pay for total duplication security, I might be willing to do it on an >>>>>infrequent basis. >>>>> >>>>>4. In addition to SP, I use http://www.memopal.com for continuous-to-cloud >>>>>backup of data files. I have found this works very well so far. One >>>>>thing I like about this system is that it backs up as soon as the file >>>>>is saved to host disk, and saves multiple versions. This feature has >>>>>saved my butt on many occasions. However, it would be tiresome to have >>>>>to do a full restore of data files from this service. >>>>> >>>>>5. Participating in this thread and facing my current problems with SP >>>>>and my 7-partition 'plain vanilla' new system, I realize that, in >>>>>order to avoid error messages, I need to schedule two separate backups. >>>>> >>>>>a. A non-incremental weekly backup of the entire hard drive, including >>>>>all the invisible partitions. >>>>> >>>>>b. An incremental hourly backup of the only partition (i.e. 'c') which >>>>>actually has any changed data. >>>>> >>>>>I have not done this yet, so, with my current system schedule, SP will >>>>>report success for my weekly, full backups, but will report failure >>>>>for the incremental backups. It is important to the note that the >>>>>incremental backups have not failed. If I go into the 'details' tab, I >>>>>will discover that the incremental backup of my 'c volume' - - which >>>>>is the only volume on which any data has change - - has been >>>>>successful. The parts of the job that reportedly 'fail' are some of >>>>>the hidden partitions; and the error message always is the same: >>>>>incrementals not supported on this volume. >>>>> >>>>>I hope this has been helpful. Showing is better than telling, so I >>>>>suggest downloading a trial copy from the storagecraft website. >>>>> >>>>>Again, this only follows my own experience. I started using SP about >>>>>five or six years ago, on v. 3, after reading Ed Mendelson's review in >>>>>PC Mag. Ed is not just any magazine reviewer. This polymath is also >>>>>Trilling Professor at Columbia and Auden's executor and, of course, a >>>>>notorious WP/DOS maven. I believe he is the most knowledgeable and >>>>>incorruptible of all the computer magazine writers. >>>>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Mendelson . >>>>> >>>>>At 18/04/2014 03:22, you wrote: >>>>>>Bill, >>>>>> >>>>>>This sounds great. But I'm confused about one thing. If the image >>>>>>file is bootable, what's doing with the CD? You say, "in case of >>>>>>disaster." Meaning what? That your regular hard drive won't boot? I >>>>>>don't fully trust booting from a CD (have had problems: the Lenovo >>>>>>Thinkpad I have doesn't have an internal CD drive, so have to use an >>>>>>external USB CD drive and change the boot order, but it doesn't >>>>>>always work--something about the unreliability of non-powered USB CD >>>>>>drives, I think. >>>>>> >>>>>>So why can't you boot from the bootable image? And how specifically >>>>>>would you go from invoking SP on another computer to getting a drive >>>>>>to insert in the now defunct computer? >>>>>> >>>>>>Thanks so much, >>>>>>Harry >>>>>> >>>>>>>Harry, I am totally with you in the idea that the only Windows >>>>>>>backup worth having is a complete bootable one. However, I do it >>>>>>>differently: automated and in software. I use ShadowProtect. This >>>>>>>creates a bootable image file (I split it into 640MB segments) that >>>>>>>is incrementable and automatable (I do a full backup every week; an >>>>>>>incremental every 3 hours). >>>>>>> >>>>>>>So how do you get a bootable drive out of this? In case of disaster, >>>>>>>you boot up with a ShadowProtect CD (or simply invoke ShadowProtect >>>>>>>on another computer) and restore your image to your target hard drive. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>The result will be a perfect duplicate. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I have done this several times with complete success. ShadowProtect >>>>>>>is the only such system that has ever worked for me. (Acronis is not >>>>>>>a patch on it.) I have complete confidence in it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Are there any gotchas? I would say that you have to watch the >>>>>>>numerous hidden partitions (more and more!) that modern computers >>>>>>>are beginning toi have. (For example there are seven partitions on >>>>>>>my plain vanilla Dell XPS 15 late 2013. Why so many? Heaven knows.) >>>>>>>Once or twice, I have lost one of these partitions, but it has not >>>>>>>affected me in any visible way. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>SSDs are great but they can benefit from maintenance and they do in >>>>>>>the end fail. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Why not use both? Continue to use the hardware solution but only >>>>>>>once every couple of months? Meanwhile use the software solution >>>>>>>regularly. You will then have the convenience of up-to-the-minute >>>>>>>backups (as long as the backup drive is connected of course). >>>>>>> >>>>>>>These images are complete total, total, total duplicates of your >>>>>>>hard drive state. There is no need to worry about losing any value whatever. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>NB: This is just one user's experience over the past few years. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>At 17/04/2014 22:11, you wrote: >>>>>>>>I have a technical question that maybe one or more of you would be >>>>>>>>so kind as to help with. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>I've been bitten by disaster too many times not to be very >>>>>>>>concerned with backup. I have now what is the ideal solution, >>>>>>>>except for one flaw: I take the SSD drive out of my Lenovo Thinkpad >>>>>>>>(fairly easy to do, but requires unscrewing one screw), and put it >>>>>>>>with the backup drive into a toaster-like drive-duplicator from >>>>>>>>Aluratek that duplicates the SSD, sector by sector, onto the backup >>>>>>>>drive. The result is a completely substitutable, bootable dupe of >>>>>>>>my SSD (which I then replace in my Thinkpad). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>The only problem is that I can't do this, of course, as a scheduled >>>>>>>>task. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>I am doing physical drive duplication because via software, you >>>>>>>>can't produce a bootable drive. But is making a clone image good >>>>>>>>enough? I have tried Acronis, EaseUS, and Carbonite for making >>>>>>>>"images," but they aren't bootable. As I understand it (through a >>>>>>>>glass, darkly), you boot your system some other way, then "restore" >>>>>>>>the image. It's all smoke and mirrors to me. I don't trust "booting >>>>>>>>some other way," even though the Thinkpad has a system recovery >>>>>>>>partition on the main drive (i.e., my SSD). So, am I being a >>>>>>>>scaredy-cat? Should I rely on images and just "get over it" re my >>>>>>>>bafflement at what the restore process is? Would the end result be >>>>>>>>not just the return of my data files but of all my OS settings, >>>>>>>>including the registry? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>A final thought: is the image, like a virtual machine, just one >>>>>>>>file that you only need a running computer to activate? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Thanks for the hand-holding. >