Msg: Re: Backup--OT

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Troop
To: xywrite
Sent: Sun, Apr 20, 2014 3:45 pm
Subject: Re: Backup--OT

Well, that would be a dealbreaker on that particular product for me. I would never trust any archival system that did not verify writes. Lost too many files over the years! Little things - - but things I wanted. Just because a drive boots does not mean -- far from it -- that every byte has been correctly copied. For anyone who wants further fuel for storage paranoia, Robin Harris's articles on NTFS corruption and SSD corruption are good starting points: http://www.zdnet.com/blog/storage/how-ssds-can-hose-your-data/1423 http://www.zdnet.com/blog/storage/how-microsoft-puts-your-data-at-risk/169 (further searches will reveal how Apple missed the boat on supporting a reliable file system; also his stuff on MDISC which apparently finally has a '1000-year' blu-ray - - topics discussed on this list last year) At 20/04/2014 19:24, you wrote: >>That's interesting - - I didn't think you'd be easy to convince. >>And as I say, you've gotten me to doubt. I am assuming that there >>is some kind of verify mechanism? > >Just that I put the backup drive in the machine and it boots. > > >>Regarding ShadowProtect, I just now had a need accidentally >>downloaded something from Linkbury which is one of the most >>annoying things ever. I had backed up an hour ago so I thought it >>would be a cinch to restore from ShadowProtect. But, on my new Dell >>system with the 8 partitions and heaven only knows what sort of >>BIOS, I simply cannot get the recovery environment to work. It will >>boot, via a USB external CD, but then it hangs. There are many ways >>around this: I could just do it all on another system, but I am >>disturbed that I cannot do it on the host system. This is the first >>time I have had a problem with ShadowProtect. Harry, you brought it upon me! > >The Shadow knows! > > >>At 18/04/2014 17:53, you wrote: >>>Bill, >>> >>>You've convinced me not to use any software solution. The best I >>>can think of in using the disk duplicator is to get or fabricate >>>some kind of cable that would allow me to keep the SSD *outside* >>>of the computer. I've searched for these, but I don't think they >>>exist. The idea would be to plug one end of the cable inside the >>>laptop where the SSD connects and the other end of the cable to >>>the SSD. Its purpose would only be to avoid having to unscrew the >>>little door on the Thinkpad inside of which the SSD normally >>>lives. Ideally the cable extender would be a Y-shaped one, so that >>>the SSD would always be plugged into both the computer and the >>>drive duplicator. >>> >>>As to the one I use, it's available for $51 from newegg: >>> >>>http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?gclid=CJPqpNy_6r0CFQ2hOgoda2oAJw&Item=N82E16817422030&nm_mc=KNC-GoogleAdwords&cm_mmc=KNC-GoogleAdwords-_-pla-_-Hard+Drive+Enclosures-_-N82E16817422030&ef_id=U0QBfgAABVdzqSDN:20140418165301:s >>> >>>Regards, >>>Harry >>> >>>>Hi Harry, >>>> >>>>1. The files that ShadowProtect creates are not the image itself. >>>>(You will often choose to use some degree of compression.) They >>>>are the data SP uses to create the image on the target media. I >>>>don't know how to explain it any better than that - - it is >>>>confusing. I am not confident that I am using the vocabulary correctly. >>>> >>>>2. So: let's say you have a hard drive that has failed, and you >>>>need to restore your system to a new hard drive from the SP >>>>backup you made an hour before the crash. >>>> >>>>You need the SP program to take your backup data and write the >>>>image onto the new hard drive. I have done this in two ways. >>>> >>>>a. by booting the SP disk on my target computer's CD (on a new >>>>system you could just as well boot with a USB stick), and >>>>restoring to new hard drive from an external with the SP data >>>> >>>>or >>>> >>>>b. by using a different computer that has SP installed. On this >>>>computer, I will have two external drives. Drive 1 is the SP >>>>backup; Drive 2 is the blank you want to image. In this case, I >>>>tell the SP program to restore Drive 2 from Drive 1. (Physically >>>>speaking, I do not place Drive 2, the new hard drive, into an >>>>actual enclosure; rather, I use Newertech's Universal Drive >>>>Adapter which connects, without any enclosure or fuss, any drive >>>>to a USB 2/3 port.) >>>> >>>>You've forced me to think about this deeply unpleasant subject >>>>again, and I offer these observations: >>>> >>>>1. SP seems to work. By contrast, I have not been happy with more >>>>or less recent versions of Ghost and Acronis. I was particularly >>>>upset when Ghost lost the ability to live clone one hard drive to >>>>another - - perhaps that has been fixed? Apart from that, both >>>>Ghost and Acronis have always been buggy for me. >>>> >>>>2. There definitely are gotchas in SP. One of its characteristics >>>>is that there are some partitions that will only backup on a full >>>>backup. They will not work on an incremental backup job. >>>>Therefore, if you don't want to see a backup failed message, you >>>>have to remove those partitions from the incremental backup job. >>>>I don't like this. >>>> >>>>3. More and more, I can see the point in using a hardware-only >>>>solution such as you have, and would be grateful if you pointed >>>>me to the website for the product. I do strenuously object to the >>>>requirement that you have to remove the source drive from the >>>>computer each time you want to do a backup, but if this is the >>>>price one has to pay for total duplication security, I might be >>>>willing to do it on an infrequent basis. >>>> >>>>4. In addition to SP, I use http://www.memopal.com for >>>>continuous-to-cloud backup of data files. I have found this works >>>>very well so far. One thing I like about this system is that it >>>>backs up as soon as the file is saved to host disk, and saves >>>>multiple versions. This feature has saved my butt on many >>>>occasions. However, it would be tiresome to have to do a full >>>>restore of data files from this service. >>>> >>>>5. Participating in this thread and facing my current problems >>>>with SP and my 7-partition 'plain vanilla' new system, I realize >>>>that, in order to avoid error messages, I need to schedule two >>>>separate backups. >>>> >>>>a. A non-incremental weekly backup of the entire hard drive, >>>>including all the invisible partitions. >>>> >>>>b. An incremental hourly backup of the only partition (i.e. 'c') >>>>which actually has any changed data. >>>> >>>>I have not done this yet, so, with my current system schedule, SP >>>>will report success for my weekly, full backups, but will report >>>>failure for the incremental backups. It is important to the note >>>>that the incremental backups have not failed. If I go into the >>>>'details' tab, I will discover that the incremental backup of my >>>>'c volume' - - which is the only volume on which any data has >>>>change - - has been successful. The parts of the job that >>>>reportedly 'fail' are some of the hidden partitions; and the >>>>error message always is the same: incrementals not supported on this volume. >>>> >>>>I hope this has been helpful. Showing is better than telling, so >>>>I suggest downloading a trial copy from the storagecraft website. >>>> >>>>Again, this only follows my own experience. I started using SP >>>>about five or six years ago, on v. 3, after reading Ed >>>>Mendelson's review in PC Mag. Ed is not just any magazine >>>>reviewer. This polymath is also Trilling Professor at Columbia >>>>and Auden's executor and, of course, a notorious WP/DOS maven. I >>>>believe he is the most knowledgeable and incorruptible of all the >>>>computer magazine writers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Mendelson . >>>> >>>>At 18/04/2014 03:22, you wrote: >>>>>Bill, >>>>> >>>>>This sounds great. But I'm confused about one thing. If the >>>>>image file is bootable, what's doing with the CD? You say, "in >>>>>case of disaster." Meaning what? That your regular hard drive >>>>>won't boot? I don't fully trust booting from a CD (have had >>>>>problems: the Lenovo Thinkpad I have doesn't have an internal CD >>>>>drive, so have to use an external USB CD drive and change the >>>>>boot order, but it doesn't always work--something about the >>>>>unreliability of non-powered USB CD drives, I think. >>>>> >>>>>So why can't you boot from the bootable image? And how >>>>>specifically would you go from invoking SP on another computer >>>>>to getting a drive to insert in the now defunct computer? >>>>> >>>>>Thanks so much, >>>>>Harry >>>>> >>>>>>Harry, I am totally with you in the idea that the only Windows >>>>>>backup worth having is a complete bootable one. However, I do >>>>>>it differently: automated and in software. I use ShadowProtect. >>>>>>This creates a bootable image file (I split it into 640MB >>>>>>segments) that is incrementable and automatable (I do a full >>>>>>backup every week; an incremental every 3 hours). >>>>>> >>>>>>So how do you get a bootable drive out of this? In case of >>>>>>disaster, you boot up with a ShadowProtect CD (or simply invoke >>>>>>ShadowProtect on another computer) and restore your image to >>>>>>your target hard drive. >>>>>> >>>>>>The result will be a perfect duplicate. >>>>>> >>>>>>I have done this several times with complete success. >>>>>>ShadowProtect is the only such system that has ever worked for >>>>>>me. (Acronis is not a patch on it.) I have complete confidence in it. >>>>>> >>>>>>Are there any gotchas? I would say that you have to watch the >>>>>>numerous hidden partitions (more and more!) that modern >>>>>>computers are beginning toi have. (For example there are seven >>>>>>partitions on my plain vanilla Dell XPS 15 late 2013. Why so >>>>>>many? Heaven knows.) Once or twice, I have lost one of these >>>>>>partitions, but it has not affected me in any visible way. >>>>>> >>>>>>SSDs are great but they can benefit from maintenance and they >>>>>>do in the end fail. >>>>>> >>>>>>Why not use both? Continue to use the hardware solution but >>>>>>only once every couple of months? Meanwhile use the software >>>>>>solution regularly. You will then have the convenience of >>>>>>up-to-the-minute backups (as long as the backup drive is connected of course). >>>>>> >>>>>>These images are complete total, total, total duplicates of >>>>>>your hard drive state. There is no need to worry about losing >>>>>>any value whatever. >>>>>> >>>>>>NB: This is just one user's experience over the past few years. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>At 17/04/2014 22:11, you wrote: >>>>>>>I have a technical question that maybe one or more of you >>>>>>>would be so kind as to help with. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I've been bitten by disaster too many times not to be very >>>>>>>concerned with backup. I have now what is the ideal solution, >>>>>>>except for one flaw: I take the SSD drive out of my Lenovo >>>>>>>Thinkpad (fairly easy to do, but requires unscrewing one >>>>>>>screw), and put it with the backup drive into a toaster-like >>>>>>>drive-duplicator from Aluratek that duplicates the SSD, sector >>>>>>>by sector, onto the backup drive. The result is a completely >>>>>>>substitutable, bootable dupe of my SSD (which I then replace in my Thinkpad). >>>>>>> >>>>>>>The only problem is that I can't do this, of course, as a >>>>>>>scheduled task. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I am doing physical drive duplication because via software, >>>>>>>you can't produce a bootable drive. But is making a clone >>>>>>>image good enough? I have tried Acronis, EaseUS, and Carbonite >>>>>>>for making "images," but they aren't bootable. As I understand >>>>>>>it (through a glass, darkly), you boot your system some other >>>>>>>way, then "restore" the image. It's all smoke and mirrors to >>>>>>>me. I don't trust "booting some other way," even though the >>>>>>>Thinkpad has a system recovery partition on the main drive >>>>>>>(i.e., my SSD). So, am I being a scaredy-cat? Should I rely on >>>>>>>images and just "get over it" re my bafflement at what the >>>>>>>restore process is? Would the end result be not just the >>>>>>>return of my data files but of all my OS settings, including the registry? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>A final thought: is the image, like a virtual machine, just >>>>>>>one file that you only need a running computer to activate? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Thanks for the hand-holding. >> >